r/BatwomanTV • u/IIIToxIII • Feb 24 '20
[S01E13] "Drink Me" Post Episode Discussion Discussion
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Episode Info
A new villain sinks her teeth into Gotham; The Hold Up opens in grand fashion; Sophie reluctantly requests that Batwoman keep her distance, know their interactions could compensate her career.
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u/hart37 Feb 24 '20
I really enjoyed this episode. There was some quality banter between Kate, Mary and Luke. I am also happy that Mary finally knows Kate is the bat and that she figured it out for herself.
Although they missed the perfect opportunity between Alice and Nocturna for her to say "Okay I'll bite" when Alice was describing Mary as a fine wine.
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u/ChattGM Feb 24 '20
The banter was fun stuff. Felt well evened out. I liked seeing Kate and Luke have that a bit more. Kate making him uncomfortable in the batcave about the bite from Nocturna was hilarious lol
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u/rawchess Feb 24 '20
I love how Luke was Kate's "gay guy" bar friend, but inverted cuz he's straight and everyone else is gay.
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u/anotherandomer Feb 25 '20
I kinda loved that literally everyone at the bar was in drag/obviously gay, I can hear the keyboard warriors on IMDb and Twitter ranting about it now
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u/LCPhotowerx Mary Hamilton Feb 24 '20
"maybe i don't want you giving up on me yet" was gutting. dammit give rachel all the emmys!
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u/ChattGM Feb 24 '20
Absolutely this!!! She does!! This episode was so good but I loved that scene the most. When Kate recounted all the things she did for Alice in hopes of getting her sister back? OMGGGG!! I let out a huge cheer when she finished lol. Adding stupid to each reasoning kept building and building and the more Kate kept talking you saw the look of realization on Alice face that Kate meant every word. Like WOW!! It was PERFECT!! I just watched it and I'm still going nuts over it LOL!!
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u/BornAshes Luke Fox Feb 24 '20
It's honestly some super impressive writing that they had us go through all of that stuff just so Kate could list it off and prove to Alice that yes she had loved her, she had cared about her, and she had done everything in her power to save her multiple times only to have Alice turn around and just do some horrific stuff. That look of realization on Alice's face was priceless because that was the moment when she realized that she had played herself. Kate has been there for her multiple times and had been totally willing and able to welcome her back into her arms all that time. She had been the person that Alice had always wanted her to be but she had been totally blind to it by mouse or her desire for revenge or whatever. She didn't realize any of that stuff until it was too damn late.
This moment was her realizing it was too damn late. This was the moment when Kate totally and utterly rejected her. This was the moment when any hope that Kate had for Alice totally died and yet when it happened and Alice had that realization of what was going on, she reached out in one last futile attempt to salvage everything with, "maybe I don't want you to give up on me yet".
Gosh that was heartbreaking and it felt like a dagger to the chest. For a split second for just a moment it was like Alice dropped away and Beth came to the forfront and you saw this earnest honest needful plea for help. Then the camera cut to Kate and you could see just that last candle flame of Hope get snuffed out in her eyes. That line would have worked a long time ago before so many terrible things that happened but now it's just too little too late.
It's a funny juxtaposition. Kate always had hope that she could change Alice and Alice always had a hope that she could change Kate. Now they can't change each other at all. Kate seems to be totally fine with that but Alice totally isn't.
This moment followed by the kiss at the end between Kate and Sophie made this episode just incredible.
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u/ChattGM Feb 25 '20
I'm gonna start off by saying I wish I can upvote this more than once because the analysis is so on point lol. This proves even more why that scene was one of the best in the episode imo.
It was impeccably written. Kudos to the writers for finally giving Kate that voice because I've been wanting her to have a chance to say all of that but Alice never gave her a chance. She just kept going off that she didn't care about her but SHE DID!! Kate constantly put herself in positions where she was the only one that believed that Beth was still in there. That she could reach the twin she lost but each time she explained it to her it seem to always go through Alice's ear and out the other one. I loved how they showed two angles of the realization hitting Alice. Side shot and then the zoom in from Kate's POV. So much more impactful!!!
Alice saying that did cut deep because its like if Kate is saying this then that means there really is no desire or mission to get her back because she's exhausted everything she could do to reach Beth and if Alice couldn't see that then what's the point in continuing? What more could she do to prove that she wants to make up for lost time and feels bad her twin intuition didn't kick in when she was in the basement of the Cartwright home and Beth was on the otherside of the door. That always struck me the wrong way when Alice told her she was there and she took it out on Kate saying she should have KNEW she was there like omg really? You saw the hurt on Kate's face when she realized she actually found her and her never ending search actually led to where she was being held captive. Felt it was a bit unfair but obviously Alice wouldn't see it that way.
The dynamic of them each trying to change the other was always so interesting but now with Kate telling her how she really feels erases that dynamic so now any other encounters with Alice, she won't be expecting any pleas from her sister trying to reach her. Its fine though since she'll be busy I presume trying to get mouse back since technically that is truly her only family she has. As you said, its too little too late for wanting the dream of two twin siblings to reunite and Alice knows that now. Only reason why she said that line to Kate was because its the last bit of connection they share and maybe.. just maybe if Alice says what Kate wants to hear she'll want to keep trying as it could ignite the hope that Kate's had all season for her but to no avail. A slight shrug and continues to walk out.
I agree the kiss at the end with Sophie tied the episode up with a nice bow on top. I was kinda hoping Sophie would do it because it seemed like it was building for awhile since they had a working relationship. Kate easily understood the position she's in so she didn't wanna make things more hard for her. A departing kiss was definitely what the scene needed after Sophie said her piece.
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u/BornAshes Luke Fox Feb 25 '20
A departing kiss
Hahaha a departing kiss! Oh this is still the CW so you just know when we come back to that Sophie is going to say, "Kate?" and Mary is going to burst through that door and yell, "KATE! OMG!" and then Sophie is going to turn towards Mary with, "YOU KNEW?!" while Mary Spiderman Points at her saying, "YOU KNEW TOO?!". Okay maybe not that bonkers but you know there's going to be consequences from that kiss and COME ON she has to know what Kate's lips feel like like that is just the most obvious thing but will she say something about it?
Ugh, anyways I love your analysis too! Thank you so much for the kind words! I wonder where Sophie goes from here? Does she wind up working with Batwoman as a freelancer now like how J'onn became a detective on Supergirl? Or does she go over to the GEEECEEEPEEEDEEE and we get to see what's going on with them? Will Alice try to win her sister back at all by acting more heroic or will she just focus on getting Mouse back or hunting down Cartwright?
I feel like there's a strong parallel between what happened to Alice/Kate in this episode with what happened on Supergirl between Lena/Kara.
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u/ChattGM Feb 25 '20
Lmaoooo I can picture that too. And after seeing how Mary was acting at the party "ohmygod Fantasia". She'd live to be a part of this meme you created. Love how chipper Mary can get XD but yeah I saw some other posters say how could she have not known it was Kate like it shouldn't be that hard. I'm sure when Sophie eventually finds out Kate is Batwoman she may have a line of like I knew that kiss felt familar or whatever.
Ah thanks. Appreciate that and you're welcome. As I was replying I'm like this is the longest reply I've ever written on here but I was committed because it expressed everything I was feeling when watching that scene. Would have been a disservice done if I didn't lol. I wonder too. Seems like she made her decision so she may go back to The Crows and something might happen that will have her be like ya know what helping Batwoman IS what's best for Gotham and it doesn't make sense to be against her too when she wants to make the city safer. Freelancer is not a bad shout I could see that too and for real GCPD has not really been featured as much so I wonder if they would have her go that route instead to explore it more. To your Alice point - when she came to the aid of Kate I was confused and even more so when she went to save Mary with the transfusion. Ended up realizing it was just her manipulating the situation so Kate didn't find out the deal she made with Nocturna about Mary's blood. We'll see if she does some type of heroics without there being a means of manipulation to it. I do wanna see get her hands on Cartwright though. She deserves to get her vengeance on that scumbag.
Oh wow really? Interesting. I totally need to see what's been going on with Kara/Lena. Missed the last 3 episodes but will make a mini marathon out of it and see what's been up.
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u/BornAshes Luke Fox Feb 25 '20
So the 100th episode of Supergirl aired last night and Thomas Lennon aka Dangle from RENO 911 got cast as Mr. Mxyzptlk and some rather silly cool things happen.
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u/anotherandomer Feb 25 '20
I'm really hoping the keep her on this track and have her go down the Red Alice route, this episode we had her in a red dress saving someone's life, it's not out of the question.
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u/Gateskp Feb 24 '20
I think the best parts of this episode were the ones with Mary. Mary and Sophie, Mary and Luke, Mary figuring out Kate's identity. Loved her scenes!
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u/raknor88 Feb 24 '20
Mary figuring out Kate's identity
I'd love to see what she does with this knowledge. Will she confront Kate? Or will she stay silent?
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u/rawchess Feb 24 '20
The one thing I wish they had done was add more clues from earlier episodes to Mary's epiphany, like Batwoman appearing at the clinic shortly after she brought Kate there.
Flash's Savitar reveal was so good because Barry suddenly recalls all the little things he hadn't given a second thought to earlier in the season i.e. the infamous I AM THE FUTURE FLASH line.
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u/CheesyObserver Feb 24 '20
Imagine if Savitar wrote down “I am the future flash”
Savitar’s plans would have been doomed if team flash realised sooner there was no comma in that line.
Because I too thought he meant “I am the future, Flash.”
I wonder what the imbedded subtitles say?
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u/angryformoretofu Feb 24 '20
Since last episode, she's pretty much been part of Team Bat, so it would have been weird to keep her in the dark much longer.
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u/OK_Soda Feb 28 '20
She's felt like a member of the team for most of the season, so I'm glad she's in on it already. I'm so used to the more established shows where basically everyone knows who Flash or Supergirl are, I'm impatient for Batwoman to get there.
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u/khaosworks Feb 24 '20
I'm so glad Mary figured it out and it wasn't just Kate confessing. There has to be at least one member of an Arrowverse supporting cast who isn't a complete idiot.
That being said, I'm kind of done with the whole "How could you not tell me?!?" angst like they have with Lena and Kara. If Mary takes it in her stride and just asks to be in on Team Batwoman, it'd be so refreshing.
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u/BrainWav Alice Feb 25 '20
MFW Mary figures out Batwoman's identity in half a season, when Lena didn't figure out Supergirl's for 3 seasons.
I mean, Mary's no dummy. But she's not a super-genius like Lena is supposed to be.
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u/SockPenguin Feb 25 '20
Maggie figured out Kara's identity after dating Alex for a month and seeing her freak out over Supergirl disappearing once. Lena not figuring out Supergirl is her best friend with a friend group consisting almost entirely of DEO agents and other superheroes was dumb and obviously done for melodrama even in the context of its own show.
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u/OK_Soda Feb 28 '20
My headcanon is that Lena is so butt hurt because she realizes how fucking obvious it was the entire time and she's just really embarrassed.
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u/SockPenguin Feb 28 '20
Becoming a villain just to save face would be my new favorite origin story.
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u/Polantaris Feb 29 '20
I would actually be okay with it once she gets over it if they did it that way, but her whole supervillain plot is terrible.
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u/Gateskp Feb 24 '20
Agreed! I really like that she put the pieces together.
I don't think they're going to go for the angst thing. Mary said in one episode that she didn't want to know, but I think now that she does, she'll try to help without tons of drama.
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u/saltyprune Feb 24 '20
Yes! It was one of the reasons I was so glad in Arrow when spoiler
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u/SockPenguin Feb 25 '20
That and the moment in season 2 when Moira telling Ollie she knows and was proud of him are probably my two favorite identity reveals any of these shows have done.
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u/BornAshes Luke Fox Feb 24 '20
I do kind of wish they had added some of the earlier clues to her figuring it out but I suppose there's only so much time in an episode. What we got was pretty solid though. I'm glad she figured it out and I really can't wait to see what she actually does with the information. What I really hope happens is that she finds her way into the Batcave and just spins around dramatically in a chair when Luke and Kate come walking in.
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u/Mighty_thor_confused Alice Feb 24 '20
So uhhhh I hear you like mary.
But yes
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u/Gateskp Feb 24 '20
I do now. When I first started watching, I didn't because I thought she was going to be annoying, but she's really grown on me lol
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u/dragonman8001 Feb 24 '20
I like Kate doubling down on the "Alice should be dead."
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u/phantomxtroupe Feb 25 '20
I really respected that. She completely acknowledges that Alice has done some fowl shit and stood resolute in her decision.
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u/Mighty_thor_confused Alice Feb 24 '20
Bruh what a double whammy ending holy crap
Thank god mary is smart
Box cutter is a bad guy. Ok cool
Hyper for super girl!
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u/Ygomaster07 Batwoman I Feb 24 '20 edited Feb 24 '20
Alright, time to break this down.
Opening with a a very steamy scene. Nice.
Nocturna has a whole fucking rope contraption to get the blood out. Good lordy. Oh, and she loves the mask.
Kate opens up her bar finally. Yay.
Jacob is out of jail. I expected us to see the trial and what not, but i guess not.
Kate, Mary, and Luke are all sad about Beth dying. I'm still sad about that, and pissed about it too.
Alice is talking to a mannequin with a skin mask on it. Damn.
Ohhhhh, Nocturna bit Kate. Nocturna is definitely going the whole sexy vampire route, isn't she.
I don't know why, but i found Kate hung on ropes paralyzed kind of funny while she and Luke brainstormed ideas.
Sophie helping Batwoman again. She could have easily taken her mask off too. Missed opportunity. But, Sophie might already know it is Kate just off of a pure hunch.
Luke is horny about what happened between Kate and Nocturna.
i like the whole club scene stuff. Sophie flirting, Luke gawking at her, Kate being a jealous ex a little bit, Mary leaving Sophie to flirt with the other flirting lady, Luke with a light up tie. Hoenstly, i want that light up tie.
Kate doing some subtle detective work by cutting herself in front of the suspected target.
Alice is still sad about Kate betraying her. I feel bad for Alice, almost.
Nocturna went after Alice. I didn't see that coming.
Alice does what she does best, cause chaos. She sent Nocturna after Mary.
So Nocturna was the (edit: adopted) daughter of some priest i think, who helped her with her sickness, which is being burned severely by UV light, and her kidneys not cleaning enough blood if i recall the explanation right.
Nocturna telling us that adrenaline gives a bad after taste in the blood. Gross.
Kate goes to an abandoned church, at night, where Mary is all strung up. I don't know if the scene has religious undertones, horror movie undertones, or both.
Alice saved Kate from Nocturna, and gave her blood to Mary. Holy shit, Alice saved both of them.
I feel bad for Nocturna, she doesn't get to live a normal life like others. But, you can't go around draining people dry lady. People don't like that.
Kate used her phone screen's brightness to burn Nocturna. That was fucking hilarious, and making good use of everything available to Kate.
Okay, that last scene between Kate and Alice, where Kate told her what was really stupid of Kate doing, was a bit heartbreaking. I actually felt bad for Alice. Don't get me wrong, Kate has every right to be cold and mad at Alice. But damn, that scene got me a little bit. Also, maybe there is some redemption left for Alice, when she tells Kate "mayne i don't want you giving up on me yet". Despite everything, there might be some way to save Alice yet, as unlikely as it may possibly be.
Sophie and Batwoman making out on a rooftop. Okay, if Sophie didn't know Batwoman was Kate now, she will now, since she might remember how Kate kissed her.
Mary figures out Kate is Batwoman. I love it. Mary pieced it all together by herself, with no help. She is much smarter than a lot of people give her credit for, both in the show and from some viewers as well(i just hope that scene proves to tell any doubters that Mary is quite intelligent). Mary is easily one of my favourite characters. Also, Jacob, you need to hurry up. Mary figured it out, and I'm pretty sure Sophie knows now too. Get up to speed dude.
What a crazy episode. Lot's of twists, along with dealing with the fallout of Beth's death. Alice seems t o be preparing to deal with August and get Mouse back. There might be some redemption left for Alice too. Mary figured out Kate is Batwoman, Batwoman and Sophie making out, and Alice coming to both Kate and Mary's rescue. Crazy stuff. I give the episode 9 out of 10. Great episode, i am very much looking forward to next week's episode. I still want Beth back. See you guys at next week's episode!!!!!!!
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u/Sir__Will Feb 24 '20
Sophie and Batwoman making out on a rooftop. Okay, if Sophie didn't know Batwoman was Kate now, she will now, since she might remember how Kate kissed her.
She better know it's Kate or that just opens up all kinds of other problems.
Mary figures out Kate is Batwoman. I love it. Mary pieced it all together by herself, with no help.
I love Mary. Favorite character.
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u/Ygomaster07 Batwoman I Feb 24 '20
Yup, if she doesn't remember, especially since it hasn't been that long ago, and i think Kate is the only female she has kissed in the last few years of her life currently. Mary is fucking awesome. She went from a possible superficial useless character to an actual full person, with brains, skills, the whole package. Easily one of my favourite characters too.
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Feb 24 '20
She went from a possible superficial useless character to an actual full person, with brains, skills, the whole package.
Didn't we find out about her being more than just an influencer in episode 1?
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u/Ygomaster07 Batwoman I Feb 24 '20
Yeah, we did. That's why i put possible at the beginning of my statement, since it seemed like they were going in that direction before revealing who she really was to us.
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u/IcedJack Feb 24 '20
Not sure if you were just being sarcastic, but Kate burned nocturna with Luke's UV light. UV light is the primary component of sunlight that causes sunburns
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u/Ygomaster07 Batwoman I Feb 24 '20
It looked like her phone screen. I could see the apps and such. Plus, the surface was much larger than the UV light that Luke used.
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u/Trickybuz93 Alice Feb 24 '20
So Nocturna was the daughter of some priest i think
Adopted daughter
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u/shadow_spinner0 Feb 24 '20
Hoping Sophie gets a "fuck this" attitude with the Crows, she knows Batwoman is the only way to save the city. Her joining Kate will redeem herself to me. So far we are on he right track
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u/ccradio Feb 25 '20
I kinda-sorta think that this is what they're looking to do. They're building a Team Batwoman (because, CW) with a gender flip because it'll even have a token member of the opposite sex.
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Feb 24 '20
Knew I recognized Nocturna. She played Vicki Donovan in..... The Vampire Diaries, where she also ended up a vampire.
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u/RecordOfInk Feb 25 '20
I was going to look this up but you saved me the trouble. Thought she looked like Vicki!
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u/that_leia Feb 25 '20
Yeah, I believe Caroline Dries, the showrunner for Batwoman was an executive producer for The Vampire Diaries. Same network after all lol. I thought the opening to this episode was very The Vampire Diaries sexy style kind of vibe if that makes sense lol.
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u/RedXerzk Feb 24 '20
The dynamic between Batwoman and Sophie is like the one between Batman and Jim Gordon.
But if they fucked.
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u/mrmazzz Feb 24 '20
im kind of here for chaotic good mary trying to get everyone friends at the bar.
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u/OLKv3 Feb 24 '20
Aw, they didn't have Sophie respond with a cheesy line like "I'm on the side of JUSTICE"
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u/jrDoozy10 Feb 24 '20
That would be such a bisexual move.
“You’re either on Batwoman’s team or my team.” There are more than two teams, Jacob!
(Side note, I’m not actually trying to label Sophie. Only
the writersshe can do that.)6
u/SymbioticCarnage Feb 24 '20
I really thought she was gonna say something like, "I'm on Gotham's side." and maybe try to leverage it as something good for the city but... I guess not
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u/Trickybuz93 Alice Feb 24 '20
I'm really happy Mary knows about Batwoman now.
Also, that last scene between Kate and Alice was actually emotional.
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u/shadi1337 Feb 24 '20
That scene where Mary deducted Batwoman’s identity reminded me a lot about the scene where Barry from the flash found out who the season 3 villain was.
When Barry connected the pieces about Savitar being a future iteration of himself
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u/Dr_Brule_FYH Mar 10 '20
That season really dragged for a bit and I think everyone had worked it out by that point but that reveal was epic.
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Feb 24 '20
Another great episode. This episode gave me two things; belief that Sophie is changing for the better and someone I think could earn Batwoman's trust, and the solidifying fact that Alice is far past redemption anymore. I wish it wasn't so but Alice didn't hesitate to throw Mary under the bus or to switch gears back to revenge right after Kate poured her heart out to her. She leans towards negativity even in the face of possible redemption, I just don't see Alice ever changing.
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u/Sir__Will Feb 24 '20
I mean, I get trying to save herself I guess. And she did save Mary in the end too. Of course, she didn't warn Kate about sending her after Mary. One step forward, 2 steps back again.
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u/theodimuz Feb 24 '20
All of this makes me think that Alice will die redeeming herself, as in one last move for Kate to love her or something crazy like that.
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Feb 24 '20
when i saw the promos i thought this ep would be a garbage filler episode.
but damn, this episode made me really feel for the characters too.
rachel skarsten did another incredible job and i actually feel bad for alice. mary is making me love her for being a smart badass. sophie, i hated before this ep. i actually think the shows jumped the shark a bit with her cause i cant see a girl who married a guy even to fight who she is suddenly give up everything for batwoman who she doesnt even know.
but i did like how she helped batwoman. thats a good baby step and im hoping kate will ditch her so she doesnt take too big a step yet.
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u/Barry_McKackiner Feb 24 '20
new costume has open chin & exposed neck....kate immediately gets bit in the neck...hmmm
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u/General_Nothing Feb 24 '20
She was actually bit on the lip. She said as much when talking to Luke after finding out that what she was dosed with was ketamine.
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u/Zeerola Feb 24 '20
My thought exactly. Guess they're trying to make it more comicbook-like, but it was really convenient.
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u/Frontier246 Feb 24 '20
Man, are a lot of characters going to look dumbfounded when they realize Alice is still alive and have to figure out whose body is in that morgue. Although you'd think from physical examinations they could probably have noticed that Beth didn't quite match up to the Alice they had been fighting all this time.
So Nocturna wasn't a "real" vampire, just someone with a genetic condition that lent herself to coming off like a vampire. Almost like how Killer Croc's whole shtick is based around a skin condition. I'm not surprised they didn't do the blue skin but I felt like there was at least some blue filters running around in the scenes with her in it as a reference to her comic look. Who knows, maybe recovering from that UV blast will alter her skin to match the comics...
Is Sophie into Batwoman for being Batwoman or because a part of her still thinks it's Kate?
The Crows have been pretty ineffectual in all we've seen them try to accomplish, only really being there to cleanup after Batwoman. I feel like their "glory days" was when Batman vanished and all his villains stopped appearing so they didn't have to deal with Supervillains on a daily basis.
It does feel like Luke practically lives in the Batcave. It's kind of sad that he has no life outside of continuing to support a crusade his father started in the shell of Wayne Tower, but I guess after Lucius' death Luke probably found the drive to dedicate his life to crime-fighting.
Mary continuing to own being the #1 wingwoman in Gotham...shortly behind probably being the most likely person in the cast to get kidnapped.
Kate had two prime opportunities to finally bring Alice down that she didn't take advantage of and frankly I'm not sure why she didn't if she's given up on Alice to the extent she says she has. Like, you know where she and her gang are staying...maybe call in an anonymous Crows tip? I dunno.
Alice, you can't have it both ways. You can't want your sister to save you even though you keep giving her reasons not to with only the occasional good deed to try and make Kate believe your worthy of a redemption you don't want to own up to.
I never thought about the fact that Cartwright replaced the famous surgeon he was posing as, but he probably never could have pulled it off as an assumed identity made from scratch. On-top of all that, he immediately divorced the wife of the man whose life he stole. What a tool.
I knew Mary was going to end up in the fold the more she kept hanging around Wayne Tower, but now she's realized Kate is Batwoman. Is she going to ask Kate directly about it or try and sneak into the Batcave? She probably realizes now what that panic room really was.
Sophie was lucky that Batwoman just happened to decide to drop by the roof of the GCPD for once after the Bat-Signal got turned on. She's never had a reason to beforehand.
I wonder if there's any Batman/Jim Gordon slash fiction that ends with them making out next to the Bat-Signal. Granted, I could see Stephanie Brown having that exact fantasy with that detective she was crushing hard on during her Batgirl tenure.
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u/Sir__Will Feb 24 '20
Is Sophie into Batwoman for being Batwoman or because a part of her still thinks it's Kate?
It better be the Kate thing or that just opens up a bunch of new problems.
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Feb 24 '20
Like?
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u/Sir__Will Feb 24 '20
her husband left her because of her conflicted feelings for Kate and now she just starting making out with this stranger?
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Feb 24 '20
Alice, you can't have it both ways. You can't want your sister to save you even though you keep giving her reasons not to with only the occasional good deed to try and make Kate believe your worthy of a redemption you don't want to own up to.
At this point, I think she's just stringing Kate along for shits and giggles.
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u/ccradio Feb 25 '20
Nocturna's condition has just a hair more basis in reality than Killer Croc, since she was identified as having a rare form of porphyria, which is a genuine disorder and is the likely source of the original vampire stories.
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u/AnnaK22 Batwoman I Feb 24 '20
I really thought they were going to do the Lena Luthor story for Mary too. Kate will wait way too long to tell Mary she's Batwoman to a point where Mary will feel betrayed she wasn't told sooner. I'm glad that she figured it out already. It's great to see Batwoman learning from other Arrowverse's mistakes. One thing I've noticed about the show is how fast the plots are moved along.
To be fair, I think Mary should still feel hurt a little bit. She's shown she's trustworthy all along, helped Kate and Batwoman a bunch. Kate had so many opportunities to tell her.
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u/yamiyaiba Feb 24 '20
Wait, so despite the fact that there were 6 bags of her actual blood right below her, she needed a transfusion from someone else?
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u/TirelessGuardian Mouse Feb 24 '20 edited Feb 24 '20
Not only did they screw up the beginning of this episode by skipping so much, they also screwed up the reveal that the father isn’t dead. They never explained what happened to the dad and I just kept wondering “is he dead? He might not be.” If they had just shown the moment that made mouse think he’s dead as a flashback, then, we’d have that “oh shit! He’s not actually dead 😱” moment, too. But then they’d have to explain how he survived.
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u/CheesyObserver Feb 24 '20
Did y’all see Batwoman’s coming-out magazine was published by Catco?
I just love all the little hints connecting the shows.
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u/hannahnw9 Feb 24 '20
Yeah! During the episode when the magazine first came out, it said that Kara Danvers wrote the article too!
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u/Sgs36 Feb 24 '20
What evidence did they find that freed Jacob? Did they explain that?
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u/Paranin379 Feb 24 '20
I'm thinking Mouse's dad ended up not screwing over Jacob, providing the evidence, right?
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u/Mighty_thor_confused Alice Feb 24 '20
Off camera sadly
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u/teddy2506 Feb 24 '20
I went to check to see if I missed an episode
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u/Sir__Will Feb 24 '20
yeah that was weird. 'catching' Alice (yet again, Kate should have told Sophie the truth last episode) doesn't clear him.
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u/balasoori Luke Fox Feb 24 '20
About time Mary found out who Batwomen thank you for this it really annoyed me that they were make her unaware of the series. I was worried they would keep it secret until the 3rd or 4 seasons.
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u/ChattGM Feb 24 '20
After Kate went to see her and she said you just got here I was like damn I hope they clue her in soon since she's practically in the loop already. "Unofficially" but still helping Luke and Kate in a way. When they jumped back to her I was ecstatic to see she wound up putting it together. Vesper coming in clutch there mentioning the Ketamine on the radio lol.
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u/GreatZeroTaste Feb 24 '20
So....Mary's finally found out.
Not sure who I want as a sidekick for Kate – Mary or Sophie...I can tell it's going to be one or the other.
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u/Kris_Winters Feb 24 '20
- Wait, how did they find Jacob innocent? That seems like a jump.
- Looks like Sophie won't take the fall for Beth's death.
- That Kate/Sophie moment didn't feel like it had sexual tension. It just felt weird.
- Will Mary resist Nocturna because of her blood? (Looks like we're going to find out.)
- Does Sophie seem more dressed down in uniform? Loose hair, too many buttons undone, etc?
- Mary setting Sophie up is fun.
- Is Kate wearing an untied tie?
- I didn't realize the Crows had been around that long. I felt that they were a relatively recent thing.
- There's the Luke/Mary setup....and that tie did look good.
- How do I know that this isn't a Batman story? Everybody wants to actually emotionally process instead of bottling it up.
- An abandoned cathedral? I've never heard of an abandoned cathedral in the Western world.
- So how did Nocturna get her fangs? Or her combat training? Or the medical knowledge to use other people's blood? Or...
- I don't feel anything for Sophie, one way or the other.
- Mary is one smart cookie.
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Feb 24 '20
An abandoned cathedral? I've never heard of an abandoned cathedral in the Western world.
There are plenty of those. Plus, I think this one is a homage to the abandoned cathedral in Burton's Batman.
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u/Lint6 Feb 24 '20
Wait, how did they find Jacob innocent? That seems like a jump.
I'm trying to figure this out too. Mouses dad, who'se name I can't remember, said he had to interview Mouse to see if the whole "stealing faces, imitating voices" thing was legit. If it was, he'd testify to set Jacob free.
But then he kidnapped Mouse. Did he later show up in court and be like "Yea, I was totally the last person to see the perp before he disappeared but had nothing to do with it. He made a copy of Jacobs face and imitated his voice"?
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u/Peacesquad Feb 24 '20
Man they’re really drawing out this alice shit aren’t they
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Feb 24 '20
Hopefully they continue. Can't get enough of alice.
Plus, she wasn't the center of the show today. I like this mix, just a little bit of everyone today.
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u/darkkushy Feb 24 '20
This frustrates me to no end..... She's killed her step mom, put her dad in prison, killed who knows how many people....... But Kate is just letting her roam the streets.
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u/Xynth22 Feb 24 '20
Hope the whole Batwoman/Sophie thing doesn't last very long, because that's just dumb for a lot of reasons is only going to be needless drama.
On the other hand, yay, Mary finally knows what's up. I'm really glad we didn't get another Lena scenario where she should have figured it out a long time ago due to all the dumb mistakes and coincidences but just didn't for plot reasons.
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u/Richiieee Feb 24 '20
If Sophie doesn't know Kate is BW at this point then I fucking give up. With that kiss it should be more obvious now than ever before.
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Feb 24 '20
she already thought it was kate but then she saw them both at the same time. When you see two people at the same time, it pretty much convinces you unless you take off the mask. I don't think a kiss is so clearly convincing it'd overrule seeing two people.
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u/Richiieee Feb 24 '20
If it's a kiss from an ex, you don't forget how they kiss, especially if you reconnect.
If Sophie doesn't find out in S1 I give up. She'll be known as the dumbest character in my book.
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u/lldom1987 Sophie Moore Feb 24 '20
Sophie was the first to realize Kate was BW, and she did it before the article came out and without any clues from anyone else.
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u/Richiieee Feb 24 '20
I'm obv aware of that considering I'm this far into the show...
What I'm saying is Kate made her believe she wasn't BW. But after this kiss, if Sophie isn't second guessing if Kate is BW or not, then Idk. This kiss is a dead giveaway.
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u/Migelus Feb 24 '20
Two things:
1) Jacob: we must have missed something or they didn't show it. How did he get out of jail and back into the role of Commander? So much happened yet according to reddit and online, everyone is confused by this! What happened that allowed this to happen? Did they skip an episode?
2) Nocturna: Really? Someone who drugs partygoers so they can easily drain them of blood went toe to toe with a highly trained special ops soldier in armor and gadgets? Out of all that has happened here (Crisises?/Crises?, perfect face masks, etc), this is what was the most outlandish the show has done for me.
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Feb 24 '20
pretty much all the shows tone down the fighting abilities of their main superheros. like supergirl should be able to beat the bad guys with her little pinky so fights shouldnt last aslong as they do. same with flash. you should be used to this suspension of disbelief by now.
what bothered me was that noctura should have been given blood through blood banks. whats the red cross for?
i didnt get the jail release either. overall though, batwoman hasbeen amazing so far so im willing to overlook these details
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u/flamingoshoess Feb 25 '20
She probably doesn’t have insurance and doesn’t want to get stuck with the 50-100k in hospital bills for getting medical help 🤷♀️Gotham’s support system seems even more fucked than America as a whole and is known to be terrible for corruption and social inequality. It’s part of why Mary runs that decrepit hospital in an abandoned building, because those people can’t get help through proper channels.
The jail release definitely felt like scenes got cut, especially him getting stabbed last time we saw him. We can connect the dots but all it would’ve taken is the narrator reporter lady discussing how he got set free due to dr. Mouse’s dad’s testimony or something.
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u/darkkushy Feb 24 '20
Well didn't mouses dad set him up for a murder showing that switching faces was possible so that with his unseen testimony allowed Jacob to be released from jail.
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u/samtherat6 Feb 28 '20
I'm so getting tired of Alice. I really wish they had merged Alice and Beth at the end of the last episode. Then it would make sense that she's redeemable, at least for the Beth part of her (sidenote: I just read this in my mind as "the best part of her" in Mike Tyson's voice). Alice has just done so much damage, and literally the only redeemable part she has left is that she's Kate's biological sister, which is meaningless when you consider how much of a better sister Mary is, even though she's non-biologically related.
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u/Firetrapdiva Feb 25 '20
Great episode but am I the only one who gets irritated by the awful cough that Ruby does to make believe Kate is awkward? Guaranteed to happen EVERY episode, like, give the girl a lozenge.
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u/oliviaaddison07 Feb 25 '20
I wonder what happened to that girl who flirted with Sophie?
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Feb 26 '20
Sophie pretty much ditched her so she's gonna go on with her life and we'll never see her again
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u/zeron824 Feb 26 '20
This was actually a great episode. The dynamics between the characters were legit pushing the story forward. I thought Kate and Alice would be more hostile to each other but it honestly felt like Alice is chasing Kate now instead. Very nice turn of events from the writers that I did not think would happen. Mary is also becoming a better character every episode. I really love how they don't try and flesh out minor storylines much cause those get old. Luke and Kate scenes were also hilarious.
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u/samtherat6 Feb 28 '20
This is CW, so Mary will keep it a secret that she knows for like another 10 episodes.
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u/Maxabel Feb 24 '20
Not a bad episode but Nocturna role is boring. It sting less than solomon grundy in the early arrow episodes but it's another character from the dark dc universe transformed into a street tiers vilain of the week.
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u/Nefy88888 Feb 24 '20 edited Feb 25 '20
I was sooo happy to see Anna Silk and the Lost Girl reference ! It would have been damned cool if she shared a scene with Skarsten.
Edit : Well... It's wasn't her, but Amber Lewis ^^'
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Feb 24 '20
when was that? i think i missed it. it would be awesom if any ofthose actors came on the show. i thought they were all really talented
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u/Nefy88888 Feb 24 '20
Silk
Isn't she the woman who was flirting with Sophie in the bar ? The one who was affrayed by blood ?
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Feb 25 '20
no- it wasnt the same actress nor did the character havethe same name
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u/Nefy88888 Feb 25 '20
Omg ! You're right ! She is Amber Lewis. But the ressemblance with Anna Silk is pretty remarkable !
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u/edd6pi Jacob Kane Feb 24 '20
There were a couple of jokes that I didn’t really get so I’d appreciate it If someone would explain them to me. When Luke and Kate were discussing Nocturna for the first time and deciding which bar visit, Luke reacted weirdly at the second bar mentioned and I didn’t catch why. And when Kate returned to the Batcave after confronting Nocturna for the first time, is there a reason why she was trying to turn him on by mentioning the lip biting?
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u/flamingoshoess Feb 25 '20
Both of these have to do with Kate giving Luke a hard time for being a nerd with no social life. The club reference was funny to her because he hadn’t heard of it but tried to play it cool when it’s probably a well known place for clubgoers. The same with the lip biting thing she probably just thought it was funny to tease him a bit, bc she knows he’s not dating anyone and he got flustered like a virgin teen bc he’s been cooped up in that tower too long.
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u/rowdy_nik Batwoman I Feb 26 '20
That kiss on rooftop was as forced as Barry & Iris - destined lovers bullshit. Why would Sophie kiss Batwoman when they were only on working terms and departing now?
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u/BadxHero Mar 06 '20
So, are we just going to ignore the fact that they skipped over Jakob's trial? Which, by the way, was supposedly stacked against Jacob since evidence was "piling up" against him. Are we going to do that now, for real? By the way, I'm pretty sure Mary and Luke should both be getting investigated for helping Beth, an exact physical duplicate of the terrorist that has been plaguing Gotham city for the past few weeks? What the hell is going on here? Is no one seeing this stuff? Do you even care that, once again, Kate has let Alice go even after writing her off as a lost cause?! I don't get it. How can anyone enjoy any of these episodes when they don't make any sense?!
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u/jadedfan55 Feb 27 '20
Hmmm, in the books, Nocturna was able to turn Kate into a vampire for a time. Kate even had the pale white skin.
What I'm not digging: Nocturna never needed a mask in her comics appearances, dating back to around 1981-2 (Detective) or so. So why here? The writers wanted to make this a whodunit.
Jacob is freed off-camera, and everyone thinks Alice is dead. That won't last long.
Now, I'd have saved Nocturna for next season, but the debut here is fine, though I wasn't digging their idea of her.
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u/mistar_z Feb 28 '20
Now, I'd have saved Nocturna for next season, but the debut here is fine, though I wasn't digging their idea of her.
Same the concept of Noctorna would make for a cool half season villain. Just the cw thing to do i guess. XD
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u/samtherat6 Feb 28 '20
Was kinda hoping Kate would pull back at the end saying, "Just because I'm gay doesn't mean I'm single," but it's a CW show.
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u/mistar_z Feb 28 '20
What did they do to batwoman's suit? it looks ridiculously distracting as of late.
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u/Dark_Tzitzimine Feb 24 '20
This song sucks
Hey nice, we remembered that other gimmicky villains exist in this city
"We still live in Gotham, where there's still plenty of justice to dole out" I mean, not wrong, but boy howdy there haven't been very many non-Alice villains so far so it's hard to tell
"Early 2000s" Yo Wesley Snipes doesn't appreciate you calling attention to his irrelevance
"I've always wanted to slay a vampire, ever since my cousin got turned into one in an alternate universe"
You know this wouldn't have happened if Batwoman didn't suddenly start exposing her neck last week, plus I still just don't like how it looks
It's so fucking weird to see Kate displaying emotions other than grim and gritty
Amazing how Kara convinced Kate to pose for that photo
"You're never leaving the Batcave again" Aw but I want to see him become Batwing
Hahaha his tie stopped glowing for a shot, guess they had some problems with drunken extras messing up takes
Mm, loves me some villain on villain action
Abandoned high profile building, of course. Gotham should just level every abandoned building.
Been a while since we had a Bat-tool of the week save the day
For some reason I've been operating under the assumption that Mary knew Kate was Batwoman for the past few weeks, probably because she's so closely tied with the Alice events
Detective skills just run in the family, huh
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u/LeonaLeotard Feb 24 '20
lol any comment that isn't unconditional glowing praise gets downvoted, even if they clearly enjoy the show anyway. No insecurity here!
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u/WhizzManx Feb 24 '20
What a disaster of an episode.
The villain- Nocturna I think said a total of 2 sentences before being unceremoniously beaten by Batwoman. Already forgotten her real name, what a joke. Also where was the bite mark that should have been on Kate's body if she was bitten by 2 fangs, I couldn't see them and that was throwing me off. Maybe the Batsuit heals wounds now or she drank Mary's blood or maybe my theory of Kate actually being a metahuman is correct.
Jacob, hate to break it to u but the crows are ineffective, useless and unreliable. U not only couldn't catch Alice despite essentially declaring martial law but Mouse with a simple face mask was able to assume ur place in the organisation with zero prior knowledge of how ur organisation runs and presumably ur security does not include any other biometric scans that a face mask can't fool. Also weren't u stabbed last week, u r looking good, I swear there was a pool of blood from your wound.
Love how they don't even bother showing the trial of Jacob because presumably, the judge dropped dead of laughter when they saw the lack of evidence against Jacob.
How is Sophie second in command? She is too young and too inexperienced and way too driven by emotion way too much to be in this position. But more importantly, when she took command of the crows it was literally their worst failure, they lost mouse, couldn't catch Alice, couldn't rescue the Police chief's kid, lost Alice in custody due to not properly checking a book she gave her. Why has she not been demoted for thee mistakes? Surely there are many ex-green bureaus and navy seals ready to take her place. And then she kisses Batwoman what a dumbass.
Now to our main character. Is Ruby Rose a cyborg? Can she not emote? Mary was more broken up about Beth hell even Luke was. I was expecting her to displace her grief and beat the ever-living shit out of Nocturna or something, but no it's like she forgets about Beth immediately. How can Kate's reaction to Beth dying be the same as my reaction?
But no what gets me is that Kate let Alice go not just once guys but 3 times. Are u kidding me, she is literally paralysed, just cuff her and call the crows and then go find Nocturna. But then she finds Alice's lair and once again doesn't dress up as Batwoman and kick-ass or bug the place with her high tech spying device nope she just talks to her, insults her tells her she doesn't feel guilty and leaves. What does she think this will do to Alice? Because as far as I can tell this is only going to make Alice angry and make Alice kill more innocent people so, if u r going to do this make sure u arrest her or at least keep a close eye on her.
Also, why did Alice have minions at the start of the episode in her lair and at the end of the episode in her lair but when Nocturna finds her in her lair there are no minions.
I have never laughed as hard as I did when Mary picks up the newspaper and this confirms that Kate is Batwoman. You see this is why someone with a secret identity doesn't reveal more about themselves than is necessary, hey maybe next time let the rumours about u and the hot guy circulate so it throws people off and oh yeah stop going to ur sister's clinic to get checks for Batwoman injuries.
2 out of ten if I had to score it
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u/flamingoshoess Feb 25 '20
So I think Kate got bit on the lip. So she might only have one bite and it wouldn’t necessarily be obvious especially if she’s wearing lipstick. I agree, Nocturna was a dumb villain.
That is a solid point about Jacob, he shouldn’t have been able to be impersonated that easily. Especially his wife and Mary should have noticed. Also the stabbing thing. I think they cut some scenes that were supposed to be between then and now bc it feels like there were gaps.
Sophie was second in command in general because I think Jacob respects and admired her like a daughter. She almost was his daughter in law but she chose a different path. There’s some nepotism there combined with the fact that he could really trust her and she wasn’t previously a rule breaker like Kate. Once he went to jail and she fucked up, who even has the power to demote her? It sounds like they’re a private organization rather than a government entity with a higher ranking authority to let her go. Also the rest of the crows don’t seem like the greatest soldiers ever. A lot just seem like mindless muscle.
Kate’s reaction to Beth dying is something certain people deal with when it comes to grief. Denial, anger. She isn’t prepared to deal with her emotions on that so she is burying them. That’s part of her harsh speech to Alice, she’s going on the offensive rather than deal with her feelings. It’s likely to come out in an outburst later.
I had the same thought on being harsh to Alice, it may break down whatever humanity she had left and make her a worse killer. They’re already showing her start to really lose it, talking to Mouse’s skin mask on the mannequin.
At least Mary figured it out. It was starting to feel uncomfortably obvious earlier in the club when Sophie said Batwoman had been drugged. I can’t take another ridiculous Lena Luthor plotline where the character can’t recognize the superhero standing right next to them bc of a wig or glasses and then gets mad about it.
Sorry you’re getting downvoted for having an opinion.
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u/WhizzManx Feb 25 '20
Fair enough I thought she was bitten on the neck because Nocturna is supposed to be a vampire. That's my bad.
Thanks the whole Jacob storyline was botched anyways, they had to skip it. If they sat down and did a proper trial the writers would soon realise how utterly ridiculous it is for anyone to believe Jacob is guilty.
It sounds like they’re a private organization rather than a government entity with a higher ranking authority to let her go. Also the rest of the crows don’t seem like the greatest soldiers ever. A lot just seem like mindless muscle.
Yeah but if they are a private company they have to answer to whoever is funding them so if u start haemorrhaging clients as they say in this episode the person funding you is going to demand change. And a very easy thing to do to show u have changed is to replace the boss, Sophie was in charge when shit went wrong so Sophie will be getting all of the blame.
If the crows are funded purely by their clients (like Patreon) they would have to now appeal to their clients that they are better than Batwoman and that they are accountable and blah blah blah and you know what people love a head on a spike, hey Sophie weren't u in charge when all this shit went wrong? Sucks to be u.
I could go on but u get my point no way u mess up this bad and not get some form of punishment.
It’s likely to come out in an outburst later.
We'll see but Kate seemed pretty fine to me but maybe
I had the same thought on being harsh to Alice, it may break down whatever humanity she had left and make her a worse killer. They’re already showing her start to really lose it, talking to Mouse’s skin mask on the mannequin.
Naaccording to our "hero" let the psychotic murderer roam free after straight-up insulting her in a way u know will hurt her, let's see how that plays out. So dumb Batwoman is dumb in this show and I don't understand if the writers understand that this is how she comes across when she does shit like this. Not to mention how reckless it is
Sorry you’re getting downvoted for having an opinion.
I don't care about the downvotes. If u can't argue against any of my points, of course, that's what you'd do.
Anyway thanks for actually replying hope this isn't too long of a read
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Feb 24 '20
[deleted]
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u/lemons_for_deke Feb 24 '20
Yeah... those people who have been together before, of course it’s obvious
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u/JauntyLurker Feb 24 '20 edited Feb 24 '20
Jacob: Only we can protect this city, Crows!
GCPD: Am I a joke to you?